| tuf -
| Thank you for having us today Ray.
|
| RP -
| Glad to have you here.
|
| tuf -
| Let's begin by discussing your father's early career. I know you don't know exactly what happened back then but, he may have talked about certain events with you or you may have heard things said about your father from other people. Can you tell us something about his early career?
|
| RP -
| Well, as far as his writing goes, he loved science fiction. Not only the fiction part, but the science as well. He felt that the doorway to the future was through science. Everything we have now comes from an idea. Nothing was concrete. He loved science, and science fiction dealt with the ideas of the future. In a way it was leading the way to the future.
|
| tuf -
| What was the first story he wrote?
|
| RP -
| Well, his first story was Time Ray of Jandra. He wrote that when he was 17-years old. He said it came from a dream. He said it was the first story he sold. (see bottom of this page for additional titles he sold)
|
| tuf -
| He sold it to Hugo Gernsback, right?
|
| RP -
| Off hand I don't remember. I'd have to look it up. I do have a list of everything he wrote. He kept a log of everything, of the different names, pen names. I don't know all of them but he had many, many different pen names. As far as his writing goes he would submit a story, and if it was rejected he would rewrite it and submit it again. So, many stories he did many times.
| Raymond Alfred Palmer - 1963
| 
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|
| tuf -
| Did your dad ever talk about the Science Correspondence Club?
|
| RP -
| Yes, I heard about it and then I read this letter in which he won a hundred dollar contest prize. He talked about the advancement of science and about science fiction. The club was going to, I think, buy books and exchange them between members so they all could learn more about science. I don't remember the date when this happened.
|
| tuf -
| This is before he became editor of Amazing Stories?
|
| RP -
| Yes. They started the club in Waukegan. Robert Bloch was a member of that club.
|
| tuf -
| Let's talk about your dad's Amazing Story years? Did he ever talk to you about how that came about?
|
| RP -
| No, but I read his articles. If anybody is interested in it they can go back to his old articles and read what he said. Basically he wrote all these stories which he submitted for many years. Then, shortly before he became editor ofAmazing Stories, he said he just went back to his room, and wrote and waited for something to happen. This is when he was contacted to become editor.
|
| tuf -
| This was in June of 1938?
|
| RP -
| Approximately, I don't know the date for sure. Again you would have to look at the magazine to confirm that.
|
| tuf -
| Amazing Stories was a Ziff-Davis Publishing magazine...
|
| RP -
| Yes
|
| tuf -
| Did your father talk to you about those early years at Amazing Stories?
|
| RP -
| Not often.By the time I was old enough to discuss these matters we had our own publishing company up here which kept us busy. He would talk about the old times every once in a while when he and some of the old editors of Amazing Stories got together. If we did talk it was concerning the Shaver Mystery.
|
| tuf -
| Let's talk about Richard Shaver. Shaver wrote a letter to Amazing Stories which they recieved in September of 1943 (published in January, 1944). In the letter he talked about an ancient language he claimed to discovered. He called the language Mantang.
|
| RP -
| Yes.
|
| tuf -
| The story goes that one of the editors at Amazing Stories read it, thought it was a bunch of malarkey, and threw it in the waste basket. Your father was intrigued by it and pulled it out...
|
| RP -
| Yes, it was Howard Browne that read the letter and then said something to that effect. Dad was in another room and he overheard the story and he in and picked it out. It wasn't a sensational letter. But dad said here's an interesting language, published it to see what people would think about it,and recieved all the responses for it. This interested him.
|
| tuf -
| When did your dad actually meet Shaver?
|
| RP -
| It was after they ran the first Shaver story - I Remember Lemuria.
|
| tuf -
| And they got along well with each other. They formed a friendship that lasted...
|
| RP -
| Oh yes. I think once a month, or something like that, dad would go to the Ziff-Davis Offices in New York. On one of those trips he stopped by...he went down to see Shaver.
|
| tuf -
| In New York?
|
| RP -
| Well, not in New York. He went down to Shaver's home. I think that was in Pennsylvania. And that's when he talked to Shaver about the story. And most people know my dad's story where he went to bed (at Shaver's home) and then heard the voices in Shaver's' room.
|
| tuf -
| And was your father convinced that Shaver was right at that time?
|
| RP -
| No. It was just an interesting story which lead him to see Shaver. Then he heard the voices. The next day he looked around for hidden recorders. He became more interested. But as he had said Shaver's stories were interesting. He was hired at Amazing Stories to sell magazines. It was a good story.
| Richard Shaver and Ray A. Palmer outside "Shaver's Shack"
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|
| tuf -
| Did you ever meet Richard Shaver?
|
| RP -
| Oh, well, he lived 2 miles up the road.
|
| tuf -
| So you did know him?
|
| RP -
| Oh yes...
|
| tuf -
| What was your impression of him?
|
| RP -
| Well, he was a very nice gentle man really. My friends were never frightened of him even though people would call him crazy. I was very young back then but I would go up there, stay at his place and everything, and he would tell me stories. We'd go looking for his rocks for his rock books.
|
| tuf -
| Around here?
|
| RP -
| Around here, yes..
|
| tuf -
| And did you ever find any for him?
|
| RP -
| Oh, he found lots of them all the time.
|
| tuf -
| He did.
|
| RP -
| Yeah.
|
| tuf -
| Did you find any?
|
| RP -
| I couldn't see what he was looking for but, then again, it's a matter of knowing what you're looking for. You've seen these pictures of these 'magic eye' images in books. Some people can see the images, some people can't. I just remember Shaver looking at the rocks in a certain way which reminded me of the way people look at those 'magic eye' images. And maybe he's looking at them different. I was looking for specific shapes. If you read his writings it was more the color shadings that he was talking about. So maybe I was looking for different things. When I look at rocks, at least going by what his writing says, I can see picture in them too, sometimes. He is not here to say we are seeing the same thing. Which is unfortunate.
|
| tuf -
| What was your father's final conclusion concerning Richard Shaver and his cavern worlds? Did he draw a conclusion at some point?
|
| RP -
| I don't think he drew a final conclusion. He made many parallels to the book of Oasphe. As far as the caverns, Richard admits that he wasn't physically there. When this happens he's in a comatose state. Where does the information come from, that's the thing. Its how the mind works. I mean if you take a baby and put him in a isolated room and leave him there forever, is his mind going to be totally blank or is there going to be some information there? If it comes, where does it come from? Inspiration? or what?
|
| tuf -
| Hmmm...
|
| RP -
| Everything has to come from thought. So that was my dads thinking. Where did Richard Shaver get all this information, some of it being new information?
|
|
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| DID YOU KNOW --- Ray A Palmer was injured at the age of 7. He was hit by a truck. Because of this horrible accident Ray was often bedridden as a child. He spend most of this time reading books from the local library.
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| tuf -
| Do you think that the Shaver Mystery ultimately ended your dad's career at Amazing Stories and caused him to move on and form Fate magazine?
|
| RP -
| Well, as my dad said, the Shaver Mystery sort of ran its course over the years. As for contributing to my dad leaving Amazing Stories, he had planned to leave Ziff-Davis back in 1946. What had sparked his decision were the rumors that Ziff-Davis was going to close their Chicago offices and move everything to New York.
|
| tuf -
| Which they never did...
|
| RP -
| Howard Brown was the only editor who actually moved to New York. A lot of the editors didn't want to go. Many of them started their own business at the time. That was the time my dad left too.
|
| tuf -
| It has been suggested that the fans of Amazing Stories were begining to turn on your dad because of the Shaver Mystery. To them the Shaver Mystery had become too mystical and other-worldly for the average science-fiction fan who dealt with fiction and kept it at that. But with the Shaver Mystery being reported as non-fiction it just became too much for a lot of fans and they started to rebel.
|
| RP -
| Well, again, the story is that there were only six or seven guys that continued to write letters to either Mr. Ziff or Mr. Davis, I don't remember which. So these six or seven were making a big noise, but compared to the fifty thousand subscribers it wasn't that significant.
|
| tuf -
| So out of this movement your dad, along with another Ziff-Davis editor - Curtis Fuller, founded Fate Magazine.
|
| RP -
| Like I said, when Ziff-Davis was rumored to be moving to New York, many of the editors came to dad wanting to form a partnership. My mom would say that dad was a 'fair-haired golden boy' back then because of his success. Dad was amazed at how many came to him and wanted to be partners with him. In my opinion I think my dad would have been better off just going it alone. Curtis Fuller was in a completely different division of Ziff-Davis. I never did get the story of how they got together. Curtis was a good business manager, maybe that's how it came about, because Curt really didn't get into the Shaver Mystery at all.
| Ray Palmer (center) along with science-fiction writer Robert Bloch (left) and editor Louie Sampliner during a Halloween 'bash'.
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|
| tuf -
| When did Fate make its first appearance on the newstands?
|
| RP -
| In 1948. Most people don't know that Robert Webster, the editor of those early Fate issues, was actually my dad using that pseudoname. The reason he did that was because both Fuller and him were still working at Amazing Stories. So they were starting their own business back than and they actually had a storefront office too.
|
| tuf -
| So they were working at both magazines at the same time?
|
| RP -
| Yes,and the reason dad and Curt didn't have their name in Fate was that they didn't want to show that they were involved in this new venture. Curt had to continue working at Amazing Stories because his wife was very ill at the time and Curt needed the money, the guaranteed money. So, in fact, my dad actually financed most of Fate Magazine to begin with. Curt eventually caught up but at the time, because of his wifes illness, he couldn't contribute much. Fate took off quite well because they rented a mailing list from Ling Anderson. He was publisher of Oasphe. It was a good list for Fate because of the similarities in subject matter.
|
| tuf -
| Interestingly, only one Shaver story was published in Fate.
|
| RP -
| I remember one with his picture. There might have been a few more.
First Issue Of Fate Magazine
Spring 1948
| 
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|
| tuf -
| Would your dad liked to have seen more of Shaver in Fate? There is speculation that Fuller didn't want the Shaver Mysteries to cross over into Fate.
|
| RP -
| That I wouldn't know.
|
| tuf -
| Did your dad and Fuller have a good relationship?
|
| RP -
| Dad and Curt got along well together. Actually what my dad thought was that Curt meant to be moving out into the country. They looked at several different places, by lakes and everything. But Curt's wife didn't want to move out of the city. That was the only difference between the partnership. My dad wanted to moved out here mainly because of the property, and having a place to raise his family away from the city. So it was the distance. If they lived closer to one another they might have stayed together longer.
|
| tuf -
| Your dad's next big contribution started with a correspondence with Kenneth Arnold. Through Fate he contacted Arnold shortly after his UFO sighting near Mt Rainier...
|
| RP -
| That would be with Amazing Stories. He had one editorial about the sighting, basically saying what Kenneth Arnold saw. And then in the next issue of Amazing Stories he said, well, now it's proved - the Martian army had landed on earth! He was getting back at the critiques of Kenneth Arnold. Kenneth Arnold's story is fairly straight forward. He was just flying his plane. He saw these objects. He didn't say they were from any planet or anything else. He just made his sighting. Shortly there were all these critics that were talking spacemen from outer space and everything else. There wasn't a bit of proof that Kenneth Arnold said anything about that. That's why my dad made that editorial cut or retribution against the critics. Once you get a story out it gets clouded by all those who like to hear themselves talk and the true event becomes so twisted that no one knows what it is anymore.
|
| tuf -
| In the book The Coming Of The Saucer Kenneth Arnold writes that your dad contacted him to investigate the Maury Island incident.
|
| RP -
| Yes. My dad got these fragments from Fred Crisman and Harold Dahl who claimed that they were from these flying saucers. This was after the Kenneth Arnold sighting. Kenneth Arnold has a sighting, then there's this big hoopla on the news and all, and then after this dad got the fragments. Dad then contacted Kenneth Arnold to go out there and see what they were.
|
| tuf -
| Did your dad ever publish the findings of Arnold's investigation in either Amazing Stories or Fate magazines?
| Kenneth Arnold
|
|
| RP -
| I'm not sure. Amazing Stories published two editorials, the first one was how Shaver had predicted these objects four years earlier, describing how they flew, because they had to fly in certain pathways. Shaver's underground caverns weren't straight so these objects flew in a zig-zag pattern. Then Kenneth Arnold said that the objects didn't fly in a normal military fashion. They zig-zagged in and out. So here you had these objects flying at a terrific rate of speed and flying the way Shaver said they would. So that's how my dad had his first editorial. He said another part of the Shaver Mystery had been proved. In the second editorial he recited Kenneth Arnold's story the way Kenneth Arnold told it. I believe that is why Kenneth Arnold liked my dad, because dad didn't want to change Kenneth Arnold's story.
|
| tuf -
| So your dad became good friends with Kenneth Arnold after that?
|
| RP -
| After that, yes, because dad just wanted to know what he saw. And dad was the only one who would listen to him and not call him a liar. That second editorial in Amazing Stories said 'at least we're not calling Kenneth Arnold a liar' while everyone else was. So dad stuck up for Kenneth Arnold and that probably made a difference.
|
| tuf -
| In the early 1980's researcher John Keel wrote an article in which he suggested that your father actually invented the whole UFO genre to help boost circulation of his magazines. Do you have any thoughts on that possibility?
|
| RP -
| Well, as far as inventing it, he didn't. The story came out before he said anything. He just reported what Kenneth Arnold said. And as far as this guy.....
|
| tuf -
| Which guy?
|
| RP -
| I think it was Keel. I'm just going by what my mom said. We used to have New Year's parties at the house. About 60-80 people would come. One year, around seven o'clock at night, just as our guests were arriving, this guy comes to the door. He wants to interview my dad. I believe he's the one you're talking about. And my dad said 'well, we're having a party and I just don't have the time'. Normally my dad would always sit down and talk to somebody. Well this guy got all mad and everything and he left. Since that time he never wrote a nice thing about dad. So is there a connection between the two events? Is he just getting back because dad wouldn't stop to talk with him? Where is his proof? I mean I would have him supply the same proof that he demanded of dad or Shaver or anyone else. It's just like this other guy who claimed that Curt Fuller said that the circulation of Amazing Stories never went up. One of the last times my mom talked to Curt's wife Mary, Mary was fit to be tied. She wanted mom to sue the individuals who were responsible for those comments. Mary said the story they were telling was not right.
|
| tuf -
| Lets go back to Fate Magazine.
|
| RP -
| The first issue came out in 1948, but dad continued to work for Amazing Stories until 1953. Most people thought he was fired in 1949, but he actually continued doing some work till 1953 and getting paid for it.
|
| tuf -
| He wasn't the editor then.
|
| RP -
| No, no, he was just a freelancer.
|
| tuf -
| So basically he left Ziff-Davis on good terms.
|
| RP -
| That's right. My dad and others left because they didn't want to go to New York. There was a feeling that people in New York didn't think much of the people in Chicago. To them Chicago was just a cow town in the midwest.That's why alot of people who wrote in New York didn't want to be associated with a pulp magazine. Issac Asimov had that attitude. My dad actually bought his first story but Asimov, in an interview with Reader's Digest said no, that a New York publisher did. One of dad's readers called Asimov on that.
|
| tuf -
| Your dad stayed with Fate until 1955. What was the story behind his leaving?
|
| RP -
| I can't give you much information on that other then the distance between the two was really not...
|
| tuf -
| Between Amherst and Chicago?
|
| RP -
| Between where Curt lived and here. It just wasn't what they had planned it to be.
|
| tuf -
| So it was a mutually agreed upon separation?
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| RP -
| It was mutual. Curt used to come up here afterwards all the time to visit.
|
| tuf -
| So there was no dissension between the two, they remained friends...
|
| RP -
| Oh, yeah. In fact we use to do printing for Curt for many years after dad left. We also would rent mailing lists from one another. Every Christmas cards were exchanged. Mary Fuller and my mom would also keep in touch.
|
| tuf -
| After Fate what did your father do?
|
| RP -
| Well, they had Mystic Magazine. Mystic was similar to Fate. This one he started on his own. Mystic eventually evolved into Search Magazine which lasted until after he died.
|
| tuf -
| Why did your dad start Mystic?
|
| RP -
| They started Mystic because it dealt with the occult. Like my mom said, she had no idea what 'occult' meant to most people. My dad used the Webster Dictionary definition of the word which was 'the unseen'. So Mystic was just the study of the unseen. Spirits are unseen, so is bacteria. Everything that is unseen is occult. Once you find it, it is not the occult anymore. This was the definition of occult that they were writing about. Mystic was sort of like occult. Later they changed the title from Mystic to Search to broaden the area of topics they could write about.
|
| tuf -
| The Hidden World was another magazine your dad published in the early 1960's. That magazine was basically a continuation of the Shaver Mysteries.
|
| RP -
| Yes
| A collection of Palmer Publications
| 
|
|
| tuf -
| All the issues contained just Shaver material.
|
| RP -
| Shaver and other people who had the same experiences. Plus it had my dads' viewpoints too.
|
| tuf -
| That brings to mind another point. Some people say that your dad actually wrote the Shaver Mysteries. He may have listened to what Shaver told him but he's the one who put it on paper.
|
| RP -
| Well, at Amazing Stories he was the editor. He wanted to make a story that would suit his readers. Amazing Stories, of course, was a science fiction magazine.So as far as the Shaver Mysteries go it probably wasn't the best way to present it because you had to add a little glitz and glamour to it.
|
| tuf -
| Was the Shaver Mysteries presented in Amazing Stories as a factual account?
|
| RP -
| Well my dad couldn't quite believe Shaver until after he visited him and heard the voices for himself. I have a copy of a Long John Nebel Show in which he was saying that it was his job to sell magazines for Ziff-Davis. So I'm sure he wrote it in a way that would sell magazines. This, as a consequence, may have changed the aspect of the story. I mean he made it more glitzy than it was. But as far as content it was pretty much as is.
|
| tuf -
| Did Shaver contribute to The Hidden Worlds?
|
| RP -
| Oh it was the both of them (Shaver/Palmer) together.
|
| tuf -
| Shaver had a place here in Amherst.
|
| RP -
| Yeah, he moved up here before my mom and dad did. Like I said, my mom and dad were looking for a place for several years. My mom's favorite place was LaCrosse. Shaver told my dad about this place so dad came up to take a look. There was a pond and a mill. They were also interested in a place with the least amount of people. They found that here. They also came up to Wisconsin because of the paper mills. Back during the war years it was difficult to get paper to publish magazines with. They wanted to be able to publish in a place close to the mills. Add it all together and you see that this is an ideal place.
|
| tuf -
| Absolutely. Now Shaver moved away, to Arkansas, in 1964. Was Shaver and your dad still good friends when he left?
|
| RP -
| Oh, yeah. I would go up to see Shaver all the time. And every Saturday he would come over for potatoe pancakes.
|
| tuf -
| Any idea why he moved?
|
| RP -
| I don't know the whole story. My understanding is that Shaver and one of the editors of Amazing Stories went off and did stories for more racy magazines, pre-Playboy type stuff. Shaver wanted to move to a different state to stay out of trouble. He didn't hide or anything, it was more of a convenience thing. Anyone who wanted to find him could, he didn't change his name.
|
| tuf -
| Back to the magazines. All these magazines - Mystic, Search, and Hidden World came after Fate. What was the last one to be published?
|
| RP -
| Well, he was still publishing Search and of coarse Flying Saucer. Then he did Forum Magazine. Forum was done because most of his fans liked his editorials. And if anyone had something to say he would put it in that magazine.
|
| tuf -
| Speaking about Flying Saucer Magazine. What was your dad's interest in the subject?
|
| RP -
| He actually became interested in flying saucers because of Richard Shaver. Basically if you go over to visit someone and you hear voices coming out of the walls, you become interested in what the homeowner has to say. And Shaver had said that flying saucers exist.
|
| tuf -
| So he dedicated a magazine to flying saucers?
|
| RP -
| Well, it started out with another magazine called Other Worlds. Other Worlds actually was part Shaver Mystery and a continuation of science fiction. Later flying saucers entered the picture. Actually the title of the magazine would keep changing. For example one month it may have been called Other Worlds and the next month it may have had the title Flying Saucers From Other Worlds. There became a large interest in flying saucers that my dad wanted to have a medium just for flying saucers, somewhere where people could tell their story. So the name officially became Flying Saucer Magazine.
|
| tuf -
| Okay...
|
| RP -
| I have another point I'd like to bring up about his editorial style. He would write about both sides of a story. What I mean is that he would write an article about whatever, saying this is the way it is. Then the next month, using a different name, he would blast his previous arguement using a different theory. He would do this just to stimulate controversy, to get people to think for themselves. He just didn't write an editorial and say thats the way it is. He did it to get people to think for themselves.
|
| tuf -
| Did your dad have points of view which he defended without giving an opposing view?
|
| RP -
| He didn't have a general editorial stance for his magazines. If you look at all his magazines you can see so many different points of view, viewpoints, in them. You can not say that he denied anyone a say.
|
| tuf -
| Would you say that your dad would claim that everything he published was true?
|
| RP -
| Well, he wouldn't know exactly what was true. If someone tells you something, you publish it but you don't know whether its true or not. That's basically how everything is really. He left it up to the interested reader, or skeptic, to follow up and see for themselves. I came across some articles that were proved false after being published. My dad would then write something about that later. I mean, if you're out and come across a flying saucer and told my dad about it he'd write about what you saw.
|
| tuf -
| Would your dad ever argue over a point?
|
| RP -
| Well, he and Kenneth Arnold would do that. My mom would call it a 'what-if' session. They would argue what if it (ufo) was a plane, what if it was a planet, what if it came from Shavers' caves. They would try to prove what it was that they saw. But then a lot of things you can't prove because you just don't have enough information.
|
| tuf -
| Speaking of your dad, Shaver, and Arnold, did the three of them ever meet?
|
| RP -
| That I don't know. Kenneth Arnold did come to the house while Shaver was still living here. But I never saw them together. I'm sure that they probably did because we were only a mile and a half away from Shaver.
|
| tuf -
| There's no picture of the three of them together...
|
| RP -
| No.
|
| tuf -
| Your dad wrote a book. Was it your dad's dream to be a great writer as opposed to being a publisher?
|
| RP -
| Yes, my dad wanted to be a writer. It was economics that prevented him from writing full-time. You've got a family and you have to make a living. There wasn't a lot of money in Flying Saucers or Shaver, although that was enough to support our family. And from my point of view I had the best place that any kid could live. We had the lake, had a swamp, had a farm. As far as doing right by his family he was a total success. I know we were always tight on money. So when you're tight on money you have to do things. You have to appease your public or your buyers. And he did more publishing and more printing which is something I know he didn't want to do. But you have to pay the bills. This took a lot of his time.
|
| tuf -
| And you do need free time to write. He did manage to complete "The Secret World". The first part of the book talked about experiences your father had as a young man. The second part was written by Shaver.
|
| RP -
| Yes. There were many pictures in it of Shavers stones.
|
| tuf -
| This book was the first book in a series of books he had planned to write. Did your dad start a second book?
|
| RP -
| I think the first book came out in 1975 and he died in 1977. Actually my dad was trying to sell the business to someone else who could keep it going. This way my dad could spend more of his time writing.
|
| tuf -
| So it was your dad's intention to get out of publishing.
|
| RP -
| Yes. He would still publish his own magazines. He wanted to get rid of the commercial printing section. But that never happened.
|
| tuf -
| We're talking about Amherst Press?
|
| RP -
| Yes. Actually there were three different names. Amherst Press was actually the book printing division. Otherwise it was known as Palmer Publications. Later it was known as _____ Printers. My dad owned them all. Palmer Publication published the magazines.
|
| tuf -
| And today you are still publishing certain books.
|
| RP -
| I'm still doing Coming of the Saucer and He Walked the Americas
|
| tuf -
| We mentioned Coming of the Saucers earlier. Can you talk about He Walked the Americas.
|
| RP -
| That book is a collection of Indian legends about a white prophet who came to America 2000 years ago. The Mormons buy the book because it supports their belief that Jesus came to this country, but we don't say that at all in the book. We just say that there was a prophet that came to this country at that time, speaking the same words as Jesus. The book is based on legends that were passed down mouth to mouth. It was written by L. Taylor Hanson who wrote a regular column for Amazing Stories called "Scientific Wonders". She did a lot of Indian legends and folklore in it. She learned of these legends I believe when she was doing her Master's thesis. At first she thought that they were influenced by the missionaries who taught the Indians the stories of Jesus. But then she began to find out that these stories are much older then the time of the missionaries. She finally got them together and put them into a book.
|
.
| tuf -
| I read somewhere that your dad had hoped that in the afterlife he could continue to be a printer or publisher. Which one would he have choosen?
|
| RP -
| Well, I assume he would choose publisher because printing was just a way to pay the bills. It's not real fun, it's not what he wanted to do.
|
| tuf -
| And writing?
|
| RP -
| I'll assume that he would write also. What he wanted was to make people think for themselves. We had a garden and we loved lima beans. But lima beans are difficult to grow because they don't always sprout right. He said 'Well, if I can at least learn how to grow them I've learned something. Maybe then when I can go on I'll have something to contribute'.
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| The End
|
